Report 184
Report #184 Skillset: Enchantment Skill: Disenchanting Org: Ebonguard Status: Completed May 2009 Furies' Decision: We will add a small delay between disenchanting. Problem: With the recent change to Enchantment to give it specializations, all of the sigils were put into the first 180 lessons (up to master) of the Enchantment skillset. This means that for 180 lessons, bards/mages can (for 2 power) disenchant every single sigil in an enemy's territory for the commodities. Given the ease of access to this, it is becoming increasingly clear that it's just not worth using sigils to defend important "public" areas like Ethereal Serenwilde, Ethereal Glomdoring, and villages. This is an issue especially in Ethereal, where it is easy to teleport / spore / summon from one side to the other if not properly defended, and it does not seem like completely destroying the Ethereal dynamic was an intended side-effect of this specialization. 0 R: 0 Solution #1: Make it so that disenchanting sigils in enemy territory takes 10 power. This means it can still be done to put holes in an enemy's defenses for teleporting / pyramiding / sporing, but just clearing the entire place of sigils is far more difficult. 0 R: 0 Solution #2: Make disenchanting sigils like removing statues / paintings / planar rifts. You spend 2p to start disenchanting, and then have to stand around and wait for X minutes (perhaps 5 minutes per sigil) doing nothing or the disenchanting is aborted. Player Comments: ---on 4/25 @ 03:08 writes: I prefer solution one as it easily allows for quick removal of a sigil on-demand to create said hole, without the current "Let's just destroy every sigil because we can!" mindset going on on all sides. ---on 4/26 @ 01:42 writes: I actually like that we can't mass sigil places now. It should encourage more conflict offprime, which has alway been the goal because people can go i and out more easily ---on 4/26 @ 04:05 writes: Solution 1 for me ---on 4/26 @ 13:20 writes: Solution two is a good idea, but two minutes per is more rational of a wait then 5 minutes. ---on 4/26 @ 14:35 writes: Unfortunately, Krellan, "encouraging more conflict off prime" is not what this does. Just like kicking and running an angel, teleporting to some clueless kid, killing them, and insta-sporing out is not "conflict". It's frustrating both ways, but at least one requires a 2000 credit artifact and some time spent in openPK territory after fleeing (the Fulcrux) whereas the other just requires Adept planar and a spore to the nexus. Ethereal's dynamic has been changed to a huge degree by this one seemingly-minor change-- and, with solution 1 at least, the new change still allows Communes with their new enchanting skill top hop in, disenchant a little bit and open up a nice hole for their raiders to go in and out of during the duration of the raid. ---on 4/27 @ 17:08 writes: I agree with Krellan, there is no reason to do this to sigils, considering that they are far easier to come by now. It already costs 2p for the disenchant, so its not like it is for free. ---on 4/28 @ 06:36 writes: Which by the by the power is tapped from your reserves, but to make one its able to be tapped from a powerstone. ---on 4/29 @ 01:45 writes: 2 power is, pretty obviously, not a huge disincentive. It is about as low as a power cost can be, and is pretty much ignored when disenchanting huge swathes of monoliths (on both sides). Doing it to make holes in defenses needs to be possible (as it was), but now that it is available to a much larger portion of the game for a significant reduction in lessons, Ethereal's entire dynamic changed completely. Being "easier to come by" doesn't change the fact that they're even easier to destroy. Hence the suggestions. ---on 4/30 @ 01:52 writes: Either solution is good ---on 4/30 @ 01:54 writes: If you don't want to worry about mass disenchanting then I would not suggest not placing mass sigils. There are already various other methods to deal with teleportation issues such as shrine distortion. This suggestion is silly at best. ---on 4/30 @ 03:00 writes: Shrine distortion is, obviously, limited by having a Shrine and someone in the Order who has the priv, Nydekion. Further, the reasoning about how it completely changes the Ethereal dynamic (by not placing sigils) is not even addressed by you. Having mass swathes disenchanted or not placing any are, in the end, the exact same thing. Except that one takes a large amount of extra time and commodities. ---on 4/30 @ 14:34 writes: It does change the Ethereal dynamic, one for the better. Previously, it was nigh impossible to leave or enter Ethereal territories without possession of a cubix or running through a group back to the aetherport. The recent change to allow disenchanting by both communes and cities brings the dynamic back to where it should have been in the first place: the usage of sigils in tactical situations instead of flooding an entire area with them. ---on 4/30 @ 14:49 writes: Also note, concerning the Ethereal dynamic, that sigils are generally placed 9 levels down already requiring significant time to dig up before it can be successfully disenchanted, making solution 2 essentially unnecessary and redundant. ---on 4/30 @ 21:30 writes: Which is why mass disenchanting happens at off-hours when you know that nobody is around to stop you at the moment. There is no mass-disenchanting during on- hours. You just log on to having everything gone. That said, I do prefer solution 1. Also: How is it for the better, on any terms beyond "I really enjoy suddenly having an easier time of getting to Ethereal than Cosmic"? That's not "better". Being able to get in with Adept Planar and out with a spore is not "better". At least it takes a very expensive artifact to hit and run on Cosmic, but this goes extremely far beyond even that. ---on 5/1 @ 15:25 writes: That very phenomena you describe, Xenthos, is exactly what cities have to deal with during any raid. And as stated earlier, shrine distortion will stop snorting spores in its tracks. In addition, both suggestions do nothing more than encourage off-hour disenchantment where time (either in regaining power or recovering from initiating the skill) is not as large of a factor...running exactly counter to your argument. If spores are a problem in ethereal raids, perhaps the answer is to change spores instead of suggesting a change to the disenchantment mechanic that makes no sense. ---on 5/1 @ 23:10 writes: It's not like it "encourages" off-hour disenchanting, Nydekion. It already happens off-hours only, it's just more of a disincentive to go around doing it. How do you think it will encourage more of it than is already done? That seems to defy common sense-- if X amount occurs and it is all off-hours, and you -increase- the cost of doing it, it does not follow that it will somehow increase the amount. And spores are not the only problem-- teleport is, as well, given that it is easy to just WHO and see who is on the other side. Thus, we could either try to nerf Teleport, Spores, and Thirdeye... or fix the issue, which is that mass-disenchanting sigils has extremely more easy to do ---on 5/2 @ 04:01 writes: Heh, how is teleport a problem here? Is it that complicated to tell your commune mates to move when they notice the teleport message instead of standing there and watching it go through? ---on 5/2 @ 17:14 writes: Mass disenchanting already happens off hours. It isn't used for anything, but a greifer mechanic. Increasing the cost makes it still viable for raids, but not just for someone to run around doing dickery. I agree with Xenthos. It won't cause an increase in off hour disenchanting, it will cause a decrease in mass disenchanting completely. ---on 5/2 @ 17:22 writes: You're missing the difference between cosmic and ethereal in the way of things. You can not teleport/spore or check thirdeye and see who is on Nil from Celestia, and vice versa. However, Serenwilde and Glomdoring share an entire plane. So you'll have a bunch of jumping back and forth between the three parts of Ethereal, or more, since you can include the Catacombs and Wydyr as other places to stand to teleport from. Celestia is its own place, just like Nil is, nothing else connecting to it. So the problem is not spores, teleport, and thirdeye, the problem is how easy it is to disenchant, making it even easier to enter than Celestia and Nil. I'm sure you'd be complaining too if someone could just teleport to you on Celestia whenever while they're on Nil. As it stands now, all you need to do to almost completely lock down the plane is distort that one rift. While it won't stop cubixing, that is a $2000 artifact they'll need to get in, unless they decide going through the guards is worth it. I suppose a ship too, but if you're really into it, you can get a trans commander to seal the dock. Xenthos' suggestion doesn't neuter the possibility to use disenchant to create a hole to let others in while raiding, it just discourages mass- enchanting because of a new, larger power cost in enemy territory. Doing the math, no one would be able to fully disenchant in one go with this power cost. Ethereal Serenwilde is 55 rooms, and if that's 10 power per room, that's 550 power to disenchant the entire area, or 225% reserves. ---on 5/2 @ 20:10 writes: If players in either commune are standing in an area, noticing the teleport message, continuing to stand there for 8 seconds without moving or taking any precautions to prevent it, it certainly is not a failure in mechanics at that point. Additionally, the same scenario can happen on Celestia or Nil: scry from an elemental plane and tesseract over since aethersight is tripped via scry, teleport, or tesseract, there really is no difference there. Furthermore, there are no permanent rifts to relatively safe areas on ethereal Serenwilde or Glomdoring compared to those that exist on the cosmic planes, one has to either enter through a formation of guards at the archways or sail a ship around to the port. No cubix will allow as quick or simple access to the organizational ethereal planes as what exists on the cosmic planes. The only potential issue is escape which is facilitated by spores (since it is a relatively basic guild skill compared to requiring an expensive artifact), but at that point it is an issue with spores and not disenchantment. ---on 5/2 @ 21:27 writes: I know how badly you want to see Forest stuff hammered, Nydekion, but spores really are not the issue. There are other ways in and out, including basic teleport (again, Adept planar), and WHO with thirdeye is a heck of a lot easier to find some newbie to teleport to than scrying and hoping to find someone. It is all well-and-good to say "You should know to move!," but newbies (and even not-newbies) look away from the screen every so often, and the Ethereal setup is clearly completely different from the Cosmic. This change to *sigils* (not Spore, not Teleport, not Thirdeye, not any other skill) has completely upset the Ethereal dynamic, and so a change to sigils to counteract the much greater ease of access is being proposed. ---on 5/2 @ 22:08 writes: Having disenchanting so readily available really just gives enchanters easy access to obtaining comms. People have also been complaining about people coming into their manses and shops etc and disenchanting those sigils as well. I don't believe disenchant is suppose to be an easy comm gathering button, but a means of counteracting sigils in a raiding situation etc., and Xenthos solutions allow that to still happen while preventing the abuse of disenchanting for the sake of free comms off peak hours. ---on 5/2 @ 22:15 writes: In lieu of personal accusations, I'd like to point out that the disenchantment mechanic has not changed at all with the inception of the new specializations and there was no issue with it before. The only difference now is that more people have access to the skill, as such no change is necessary. Communes gained a rather useful ability in being able to unravel sigils without requiring help from a city enchanter, as such, some of the troubles that cities face regarding disenchantment come with it and if it has been reasonably handled by the cities without code changes, it can be handled by the communes in the same manner. ---on 5/3 @ 02:17 writes: Looking at an old skill list of enchanting, Nydekion, it is rather obvious that it has changed considerably. Now, all of the sigils can be achieved for less than 180 lessons, whereas previously Monoliths were one of the highest skills in the skillset. Though you do make a valid point that it is far more available now, which also causes issues. Further, you say it was "reasonably handled by the cities," but we have already made numerous points above showing that the Ethereal dynamic is completely different from the Cosmic. Though I really don't mind if Cosmic is made harder to kick-and-run. ---on 5/6 @ 21:11 writes: What if we made etherseren, faethorn, and etherglom 3 separate continents so that spores will no longer work between them? As far as teleport goes, that's not so much different than the tesseracting on and off cosmic that has been going on since the game started. ---on 5/9 @ 01:03 writes: I like Ceren's idea, but I don't really understand why there is so much animosity towards making disenchanting harder, it benefits both cities and communes, it doesn't eliminate the ability to raid and it prevents easy abuse if 3am comm harvesting. ---on 5/9 @ 01:26 writes: Right, Sidd. That's pretty much where I'm coming from. Such raids as the recent "Sneak in, disenchant and pyramid a group directly to the target" would be just as doable. ---on 5/10 @ 03:10 writes: And, given recent changes (including the one I note in the announce right now that enchantments can be disenchanted regardless of elevation)... this is becoming even more important. Without digging, for power, a sigil / a few sigils can be removed to make a hole. ---on 5/10 @ 08:56 writes: Ceren's idea to make Etherwilde, Etherglom, and Faethorn three separate continents addresses the issue of sporing fairly, no change in disenchantment would be necessary given that solution. ---on 5/10 @ 10:26 writes: Given that with the new changes Ethereal is being cleared of sigils faster than even before the bury extra objects trick came into play, I have to agree that 10 power in enemy territory is a justified solution. ---on 5/12 @ 05:27 writes: "enemy territory" probably needs some qualifying btw - basically, org territory that you don't belong to. It would be pretty cheesy to just send into Etherglom people who aren't enemied to Night and have it work at 500% efficiency. Type MORE to continue reading. (93% shown)